what is rich. is $250,000 rich? is a family of four on $250,000? is that rich? a million, that sounds arbitrarily right, that is rich? i think in the end the definition of rich is the other guy. the guy that makes more than me. i'm perfectly fine when talking about taxes, take from him. he's rich. personally i have to say i find the entire debate what is rich disgusting, collectively. we need to define who has enough. >> we don't have to define what rich is per se, who has to pay more, pay their fair share. we say the rich, we have to define what rich is. $250,000 in new york city doesn't get you very far. >> $250,000 to be fair that numbers the president wants to raise taxes above there, that was a made up number. it's a number right in the middle of a tax bracket. $250 is a nice, round messaging number. sounds like most people -- >> most people don't have it. >> 97% of people don't have

that. >> that's true. tax $250,000 people. >> the definition of rich is someone else. whatever 97% of the people say someone else. >> a strategy, yes, someone else. there is a number we could probably all agree upon or at least a set of conditions we could agree on to qualify someone as rich. being able to pay bills, save every month, leisure, vacation, being able to send your children to school. >> i thought that was middle class. what you're describing, the middle class dream. be able to do a little better than your parents, not drowning in debt and move forward in the economy. here is another point. every minute we spend talking about who is rich and what is rich, we're not talking about the president's jobs record. most people just want to make sure they have a job and job security. getting rich is the american ideal, they want to make sure their kids can in the future. a job,000, the important thing, brilliant white house strategy to talk about rich and fair and

not lost jobs. >> a brilliant strategy, of course, you don't have to focus on the record, the rich, the boogie man in the hills. it's connected. it's a principled argument as well. extend unemployment benefits, find resources, invest in the next big idea which creates jobs is through tax revenue. which comes from who? the people who need to pay it. people like you, will. >> i like mark's honesty, it's about the boogie man in the hills. truth is you can't sell the economy as a whole, address the nation as whole how we're doing economically, that's a loser. divided up, somehow connected to the successes of another people, rich are the boogie man in the hill. that's the underlying message. >> that's true. but also said the second part, true. >> wealth a zero sum gain, one person makes more, another has less. >> that's exactly how it works. >> that's not how economy works. >> by-product of my, some people are rich, middle, some are not. >> principles of capitalism is

there's a level playing field and opportunity to get rich. you saw this in the rubio, americans filled with people rich and successful and about to be. not true in every day life. >> from the shoes you wear to coat you have -- >> you're wearing expensive cowboy boots. you know why? i was born at the bottom rung, stay in the bottom run. >> class two, talk about fair, might be surprised who is not paying taxes. they are not rich. [ manager 1 ] out here in the winds,

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>> the president wants rich people to pay more taxes. conservatives say this white house has class envy. here is what's on the table, extending tax cuts for families making $250,000 or less. richer than that, your taxes rise back to the clinton era rate, top of 35%, rising 39 point .6. if we spend trillions more on tracks cuts for wealthiest americans, that will somehow unleash jobs and economic growth. i disagree. >> the very idea of raising taxes on small business and job creators at the very time we need more jobs is the sort of thing only an extreme liberal can come up with. another extreme, the tea

party view too many are not paying on taxes, too many on social programs and expecting the government to subsidize their life. >> a government guarantee of a standard of living from all these programs. i like an america where people look around and feel guilt and want to step up and carry their fair share of the work. we have too many americans not contributing to the gross domestic product in the united states. >> steve king is not talking about rich americans at all. what is fair, 46% of americans pay no federal income taxes, other taxes but no federal income taxes, the social safety net has never been bigger. then you have the very wealthy with a smorgasboard of tax shelters, allow them to make money with their money. both extremes. >> many people don't pay federal tax, payroll tax accounts for a lot of money, 40% of all tax

revenue. so people are paying what they can. based on the current tax structure they are paying what they owe. the problem is the wealthy don't pay what they can because of these favorable tax policies. they don't pay what they owe because of loopholes. if there's something unfortunate, dishonest going on here, it's on the wealthy side. let's focus on them. >> the statistics just don't bear that out. the wealthy pay whatever we define as wealth. we just tried to figure that out. >> top 1%, earn $343,000 a year. to be in the top 1%, $343. >> pay income tax proous. >> the rich, people at the top already are paying more dollars into the coffers, no question. >> than wealth flowing their way. >> they should. it becomes a question of fairness. they should, will. >> what is fair? >> fair is being able to contribute to a democracy in ways that don't disrupt your lifestyle. oprah winfrey can afford to pay a larger chunk of her income

than you can or i can. not a matter of percentage of income, percentages matter differently based on what you make. >> let me ask you, 3.5% of small business filers would see higher taxes under the proposal. conservatives are freaking out saying it will kill small businesses. why can't they just admit this is not going to hurt small business and job creation to raise taxes on 3% of people. >> let me say this. the small business argument is my least favorite for those opposed to exempting the top earners in our society from the bush tax cuts. my least favorite. the other reveals so many philosophical problems. that being said, when you diminish small business saying 3% of small business will be affected, i think somehow because that number has 3 and a percentage mark next to it you say that's not very much, when i tell you that's a million people, a million small businesses employing i don't know what from there, but a couple odd five million, impact on 5 million americans when you consider unemployment in the

country is that same range. >> this the problem with america in general, everybody wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die. it's the honest truth. 3% is a small number. everybody wants sacrifice but they don't want to sacrifice. at some point somebody has to pay. we're so upset about sacrifice -- >> what i'm saying, your ideas might be self-defeating. if you want to take money away from the 3%, a million people, you may be adding to the unemployment rolls. >> somebody has to pay somewhere and it has to be there. the republican the sky is falling argument that happens whenever there's an attempt to raise taxes 2 cents. there's never been a moment we've been tempted to raise taxes for a clear reason republicans say it will -- >> what about a political moment, all or nothing. >> if we have to do that, we

have to do that. >> last time. we had to do it last time. >> i'm talking about in the future, the necessary i think will be to raise the 1%. if we all make a shared sacrifice that's part of a democracy is about. >> the entire conversation reveals how you feel about taxes. the president says we can't spend money on tax cuts, mitt romney says we can't raise taxes, shoes fundamentally an philosophically how you feel about taxation. >> one think it's the government money, the other thinks our money sending to the government. a world view. >> some believe in collectivity and democracy. >> after the break, what if i told you until now, four months to election, neither presidential candidate have been concerned about your jobs going overseas. what both of them haven't done about outsourcing next. just plug this into your car, and your good driving can save you up to 30%.

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are we outsourcing the middle class? both mitt romney and president obama accuse the other of sending your job overseas. >> if there's an outsourcer in chief, it's the president of the united states, not the guy who is running to replace him. >> now, -- not surprising the president sees it differently. >> mitt romney's company were pioneers in outsourcing jobs to other countries, he supports tax breaks for companies who send jobs overseas. president obama believes in insourcing, he fought to save america's auto industry and fights for keeps-of- keeping jobs at home. >> fact is there's very little difference in the stance on outsourcing. in 2qu09 when asked when the outsourced jobs would come back

to america, the president said, we don't need them. >> not all of these jobs are going to come back. it probably wouldn't be good for our economy for a bunch of these jobs to come back, because, frankly, there's no way that people could be getting paid a living wage on some of these jobs. at least in order to be competitive in an international setting. what we have to do is create new jobs that can't be outsourced. >> what he's giving you is the convention wisdom from wall street and corporate suite, awfully close to what governor romney said in a 2005 speech. he said, i don't like losing any jobs but we'll see new opportunities selling products there, a net net increase in economic activity, just as we did with free trade. it's tempting to save our markets and remained close but you're left hopelessly behind, end quote. did not come back, jobless

americans do feel left behind. the better job the president was hoping for in 2009, they haven't come. what if i told you until now, four months to election, neither of these guys was too concerned about outsourcing. professional from the university of maryland, peter, since recession americans have added more jobs overseas than at home. sitting on record amounts of cash, $2 trillion. they are not hiring and not spending here. do either of these candidates really care about stopping outsourcing or are these campaign bumper stickers. >> i think both candidates care about creating jobs in america and that means exporting more as mr. romney spoke about but also means importing a bit less. after all, a huge trade deficit. when consumers pend their dollars abroad but don't come back to buy products, jobs lost on a net basis, very large. >> let me ask you about the team romney big claim this week, the stimulus funds went to create

jobs overseas. they launched a big website saying this the outsourcer in chief, this president, and stimulus money went and created jobs overseas. is that true? >> it is absolutely true. we did not limit stimulus money to u.s. companies and our trading partners in europe and north america but rather we permitted the chinese products h that stimulus money. i would point out the chinese with their stimulus money limited the sales to their domestic sellers so on a net basis, we lost out. >> isn't it true that both of these candidates basically bought the conventional wisdom from wall street and the corporate suite that we need to be free, free trade, free trade, free trade. these jobs are going to go, they're not going to come back, but something better's going to come our way down the road. they kind of both sing the same song. >> they both have gone through an evolution. when mr. obama was running for president in 2008 he said we have to do something about producing more domestic energy so we import less. we have to do something about

the terrible trade deficit with china. but then when he became president, he really walked away from those positions because of his political base, his supporters and so forth. now we're seeing the same thing in mr. romney. candidate romney running for the nomination five months ago was tough on china, big on producing energy. since that time he's imported a lot of bush advisors. and frankly this is becoming like mastercard and visa. i can't tell one from the other. >> and that's a very interesting analogy. peter morici, thank you so much. have a good weekend. >> take care. coming up, in the era of outsourcing, is it possible to preserve the american middle class? we'll meet the man who has the solution. and it starts with paying you more. a party?

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nearly half of all u.s. workers, 60 million americans, work in service jobs. everything from janitors to home health care aides to baristas. the bay remains low. according to analysis of census

data, workers in the service sector makes half of what a factory workers makes. and just about a third of what someone in a professional or technical field makes. but richard florida says workers in service jobs should be hopeful about the future. richard has updated and re-released his book. he's a good friend of the show. thank you for joining us. >> great to be with you, christine. >> if you buy this modern theory that america's not going to make all this stuff anymore, we're going to create. we're going to be a service industry. those are not the jobs we lost. >> no. three quick facts. two of them troubling. about 6% of americans now, can you believe it, make things. >> 6% of americans? >> 6% of americans have a job like my dad had in newark, new jersey, family supporting wage, put his two boys through rutgers in new jersey. 6% of us now. that's going to decline by

another percent over the decade. we're growing two kinds of jobs. the first are the good apple jobs. >> you invent it and make a fortune doing great, software engineering. >> we have about 35 million of those jobs. we're going to grow another 7 million. they pay on average $70,000. some people make $100,000. some people make more. the bad news is the biggest category of jobs we have are not the factory jobs, they're not the knowledge jobs, they are these service jobs. i mean the low-skill, low-wage janitor jobs, barista jobs, retail trade, personal care assistant. we have 60 plus million of these jobs. and we're going to grow another 7 million to 10 million. 20 k to $30,000 is a decent job in those salaries. we have to make those jobs better jobs. >> how do you make those jobs pay more? you can't ask the ceo because this isn't a good paying factory job that someone can raise a family on and get a couple kids through college, can you just

raise wages? >> first i have a story for you that my dad used to tell me back in the '60s and '70s. he'd say, rich, in the '30s in new jersey, i had to get a job in a factory. your grandma, grandpa, nine of us combined to make -- as if by magic, it wasn't magic, my dad's job, a bad job was made into a good job. we have to do the same thing for service jobs. but the same way. our manufacturing workers use their hands and brains to increase productivity. the best factories in the world, the toyota factories, they empower the worker to be part of innovation. the service companies that are most successful are doing that too. great new study from the m.i.t. sloen school confirms if you empower service workers, engage them, have them involved in teams, the productivity of the service company goes up as well.

it's interesting, one of the companies we've done a little work with is founded by this young man named tony shay. start off about $30,000, $35,000. not a great wage, but you work up through the internal corporate ladder. you get promoted, work in a team, the work becomes secure. but what he's doing and what we've been helping him with, he's actually moving his headquarters from the suburbs where you'd have to have a car, own a house, he's moving it to the old city hall -- can you believe it? the old city hall in las vegas. and he's creating affordable shared housing for his workers. but the real question is we've got to do better. in america we can't have 60 million people nearly half -- we can't accept this. 60 million people, half our work force, locked in crappy jobs. most economists say this is the natural way it is. >> how many times have you heard we're going to be a service-oriented economy? when you look at that, most of those service jobs are not paying enough for someone to be middle class. >> we'll have a divided country,

a country divided by class, a country fighting itself -- >> and companies won't have customers. >> we're going to have to bite the bull etd. you and me and everybody else watching, when we built those manufacturing jobs, we paid more. not a lot more. we paid more for our car. we paid more for our washing machine. more for our television made in america so we could have a middle class. i always say what's more important to you? really at the end of the day, the person who makes your car, very important? the person who makes your wash machine, the person who takes care of your kids, the home health care aide that took care of my mom, we can pay a little more. we're not going to go broke. but if we pay a little more, if we upgrade services, we're going to create -- henry ford used to say if you want to build a strong economy, the worker has to be able to buy the car. >> exactly. >> we have to build the middle class. and the only way to do that is upgrade the 60 million plus service jobs. >> great to see you. we'll be back in a few hours. the president's plan to let the

bush tax cuts expire for the wealthy will hurt job creating small businesses, but how many small businesses would really be affected? and how can they fix it? i'll have the answer at 1:00 p.m. eastern. and what do you consider rich? do you believe america is the only place where only the rich get richer? tell me what you think. my handle # christineromans. have a great weekend. from cnn world headquarters in atlanta, this is "cnn saturday morning." shopping with your credit card today? soon you might have to pay more per swipe. the $7 billion credit card company settlement is being called a victory for retailers, but it could be a loss for you. plus, a wave of homicides hit u.s. cities, chicago compared to afghanistan. a spade of shootings rattle new york. all morning we'll put murder in america in focus. and later, an incredible

story of survival, a month in the desert, no food, no supplies. how one man was rescued just hours from death. good morning everybody. i'm randi kaye. we start this hour with a historic credit card settlement that could have you paying more out of your pocket. if you're just joining us, here's the deal. visa, mastercard and some of the country's biggest banks have agreed to a massive settlement with retailers that totals a whopping $7.25 billion. the lawsuit centers around credit card swipe fees. merchants allege credit card companies were fixing the price on those fees, but the proposed settlement now gives retailers the green light to tack on a surcharge if you use plastic, which could mean a bigger tab for you. and there's much more when you read thee